The show’s guest in this episode is Dr. Rosalind “Roz” Cohen. She is an Inclusion Strategist, thought partner, and founder of Socius Strategies, where she helps organizations build cultures rooted in connection, belonging, and trust. With over 20 years of experience in HR, she blends research-backed insights with practical strategies to align culture and operations. Her work, informed by her Ph.D. in Leadership and Change from Antioch University, focuses on the impact of inclusive leadership on engagement and organizational success. A sought-after speaker and advisor, Roz is passionate about fostering radically connected cultures through courage, authenticity, and meaningful relationships.

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From HR to Human-Centered Leadership with Dr. Roz Cohen

Hello and welcome to the show. I’m Melanie Parish. I’m a coach, an author, I’m a podcast host, and at the moment I’m journeying in New Mexico.

Hi. I’m Mel Rutherford. I’m McMaster University’s first transgender department chair, and I am the co host of the experimental leader podcast.

It’s nice to see you. And what are you thinking about today?

About leadership. I am thinking about legacy, the legacy of a leader. I’m coming to the end of my five year term, and I’m trying to think of ways I’m trying to think about extending my impact into beyond my five year term. And I don’t want to be imposing my views and values and vision onto the next leader, but I do want to package it up for the group so that they can reflect on what we’ve done. So what I did is I I created a list of the the activities that we did that were building community and building our our culture and our department. I circulated that to the group, and I asked them which of these activities was most impactful. They filled out a survey. I interviewed them all, and then I did sort of the quantitative analysis, and I put them in order, and then I circulated that back to the group, and I told them what they thought was the most impactful activity that we had done over the last five years. I gave them the whole list in order of impact, so that they just have that to reflect on, to sort of solidify some learning and make sure we remember what we learned.

I’ve been thinking about this because you’ve been talking about it, and I think it’s really interesting. I also think it’s really unique, like in academia, how you get to have the opportunity to have a term as a leader, like in business, people don’t have a term as a leader. They’re like that until they’re not that. And then there’s feelings when they leave, and sometimes it’s it’s really not a graceful ending, right? So I think this fact that you get to have this legacy to pass on the next thing is really unique to your situation. So it’s really cool. I wish that endings were more like this in many different businesses operations. I think it’s really a cool thing that you decide how to exit.

That’s interesting. What are you thinking about?

I am thinking. I’m thinking about, it’s usually my clients, or like, what I see in the world, like with people, how they have all these extra voices in their head, like they don’t get to speak with one voice, that’s their voice. They have like a committee in their heads. And I’ve been thinking about how people change the voices of the committee, or they’re a choice about the voices of the committee. When I find somebody who has really negative voices in their head, and we start to work together, I usually like make a mental note that it’s probably going to be a couple of years, two or three years, before they can actually get the uptick. They want to change those voices, but they can. I’ve seen it happen multiple times, and I love that work. But then I was thinking about how we could, can lead those voices much like we lead a team, like if we see them as a team, then can we be gentle with those voices? Can we say, Nope, I’m not going to let that voice have any airtime right now, like, almost like in a meeting when somebody diverts the agenda. Can you just say, No, you don’t get airtime right now. I’m going to pick somebody else to hear from. And and it’s kind of a cool thought for me, because it’s like, oh, how do you direct traffic in your own mind and start to have the experience internally that you want to have.

It’s interesting to think that it’s something one could control well.

And I think control is maybe what I’ve been thinking about. But this idea of leading it is different, like, like, I. Yeah, like, when I’m in a room with people, I don’t say, Wow, you’re really stupid. Get out. Like, that’s like, control. So the idea that I’m like, Oh no, you don’t get time on the agenda right now is is something I’m really comfortable with. So applying that to voices, or having clients apply that to their voices, is a little less violent internally than, like, cutting a voice out forever because it’s bad, because I think they all, sort of all those voices serve us in some way, even, like what coaches sometimes call saboteurs, can serve them, like, to protect them from, you know, being mean or being too nice, or like, whatever it is, like there they can be somewhat protective. So, so leading the voices in your head is the new thought.

Do we have a guest today?

We do. I’m really excited about our guest. It’s Dr Roslyn Ross Cohen, and she’s an inclusion strategist, a thought partner, a founder of socius strategies, and she helps organizations build cultures rooted in connection, belonging and trust. I’m super excited she’s here, and welcome to the show, Roz,
thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here, and was listening to the two of you talking, and had some really interesting thoughts, particularly Melanie, about what you were saying on voices in your head. So thanks for allowing me to join and be a part of this conversation.

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Welcome.

Yeah, welcome. So I would love to know kind of what your experience experimenting with in your life and work right now?

The big thing for me is the question, why? I think we all come at situations with an intent, but we don’t go and take the question, take that step back and ask the why? Why is it, for example, using what you were talking about before, why is it these voices in my head are saying the things that they are because sometimes, really it’s the question behind the question that’s causing people to act in the way that they’re acting. And so that’s one of the things in my leadership that I’m working with, with my team, with managers, when I coach them in the organization, is, what are you really trying to get at? What are you trying to do? So it’s the why behind the why, and literally asking that question of managers, and it’s interesting to see their reaction. Sometimes it’s sort of this deer in headlights, like, like, I’ve never thought about that before, and sometimes it’s a very logical, sort of systematic way in which they’re thinking about it. So that’s the kind of thing that I’m that I’m sort of putting out there as a way to help people get to decisions and get to resolutions of whatever it is they’re managing interest. So it’s, that’s my thing right now, it’s the why behind the why?

Interesting. So when you work with an organization to build cultures rooted in connection, yes, tell us more about that. How do you do that?

Yeah, so the work that I did for my doctorate was around inclusive leadership, employee engagement and an identity. And so one of the things that I have found is that when managers get together and build teams or try to figure it out, they’re looking very much at the surface of the individual and sort of trying to understand, okay, I have this number of women or this number of people of color or so on, but what we forget is that people have identities that are in addition to what you can see. So helping managers really create these spaces of trust and psychological safety where they can go a little bit deeper. And I’m not talking about therapy right, like nobody wants to go to work to have therapy done, but if you’re in a room, or if you’re with a group of people that you work with, and you’re asking questions beyond the basics, one of the things that I like to talk about is when I one of the first questions that we ask in our staff meetings is some goofy kind of fun question. And one of the ones we did the other day was, what is the food you can’t live without, right? Which seems like such a goofy kind of like, well, we were spent 15 minutes debating the the fundamentals of natural peanut butter, crunchy peanut butter, smooth peanut butter. And it, what it allowed is people to get a little deeper in a very safe way, right? So they can have these comments, like someone was like, Adam’s natural peanut butter, that is the thing crunchy going to die on this hill. And I’m like, give me the good old Skippy in the blue top. That’s my favorite. Well, what about and so we had this really. I’m like, Wait, what about organic? Right? Exactly, right. So there’s this whole debate. Really about these things, and what it allowed is people to really connect in a very safe way that is beginning to build a foundation for trust and safety that later on, when we’re talking about something, let’s say more important or more maybe a little less safe and a little more sort of spicy. There’s a way in which people can interact that allows them to go deeper and really learn about one another, and really get to get to the ability to debate or have conversations that are a little more difficult in very safe kinds of ways. So that’s that’s the kind of stuff that I work with organizations on that’s the kind of things I teach as ways of creating these fundamentally strong teams in an inclusive leadership kind of manner.

Roz, I have a question that I’m curious about in the current political climate where DEI initiatives are being defunded, and we’re a huge sector of the population that is rejecting the whole enterprise. Is there something that we can learn by listening to those voices?

I think there is. About five or six years ago, I started to question how DEI the term, let me not. I’m not talking about the fundamental principles, but how the term had become politicized, right in the first Trump regime, and I use that word intentionally. It began to be, you had to see glimmers, not glimmers, really bright lights on this being a problem within the administration and how it impacted organizations and so I started to look at this idea of inclusion, but connection and belonging. Everybody wants to belong. Everybody wants to feel as though they are part of something and they are connected to others. They also want to understand and be be appreciated for the unique characteristics that they bring, but again, connect with others. And so what really has become a fundamental conversation in the rooms that I’m in and working with folks is this idea of, how do you create these opportunities for this connection and belonging? And it sort of removes this, what has become politicized idea of dei because, again, people want to connect. They want to feel as though there are, there are folks around them that understand them and get who they are. So really shifting the conversation and and not for the sake of changing the semantics of it, but for really looking at it with a different lens, this idea that if I’m in a room and I meet someone, what is the way in which we’re going to be able to talk to each other at that, that basic level, so that that’s what it’s made it really difficult to do this work. It’s made it really difficult to create these places where people do feel appreciated for their uniqueness, but a part of something bigger and greater than themselves. So looking at that has become a way of depoliticizing the conversation, but still creating this culture of connection.

Ross, did you write a book?

I did write a book. Melanie, thank you for asking the question. So I you know you spend a ridiculous amount of money getting a PhD, so you decide you gotta figure out to do something with it. And what I realized was I actually have something to say that I think can be valuable for organizations. So I wrote a book called The engagement dilemma. And what it talks about is, how do you hold it up for one more time so everybody can see it one more time. It’s, how do you create these cultures of belonging and connection? And what it does is there are three different types of engagement. I call them, I feel, I think I belong. So the I think type of engagement is really cognitive. It’s the I go to work, and the work that I do intellectually stimulates me. It really gets my juices flowing. It really gets me intellectually engaged. The I feel in the I belong are different. It’s that feeling of doing good work, it’s that satisfaction emotional, much more of the that connective piece with others, that’s the I belong as well. So the interesting thing is, what my research has shown is that the intellectual piece that that I think can’t cannot be impacted by managers and by organizational culture, but the I feel in the I belong can. So when you have cultures that create these connective tissue you. Can impact how well people are engaged at the I feel and I belong level, but the intellectual piece you can’t so what are we doing to attract the right people into our organization so that we are engaging that I think piece? So what the book does is it walks you through how to do that, talks about the ways in which you can create onboarding processes, recruiting processes and so on, so that you are attracting the right people intellectually, and then you can help managers do the right things, so that they have the the belonging and engagement aspect connected as well, so that that’s the book that I wrote about three or four months ago, actually.

Congratulations.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

I have a book. And where can people find you?

So you can find me at drrozcohen.com, just my name, very, very unexciting. And you can find my book on Amazon, which is pretty exciting. I’m also on LinkedIn, so if you type in ROS Cohen, I show up, I’m the only one. Thank goodness, I guess.

Well, thank you so much for being here. It’s really interesting to hear how you think about this work. It’s, it’s been really great. Yeah, thanks for being here.

Thank you so much. I appreciate your time, and I hope you have a wonderful day. I appreciate being able to chat about this.

Well, that was really interesting.

Yeah, it was interesting to think about engagement and connection as really what people are looking for.

Yeah, I love that. I feel I think I belong and that you can’t. The organization can impact the feel and the belong, but the thinking is sort of carried with the person. Yeah, I think this is a really interesting thought. And I, I, you know, as somebody who does sort of cultural work with teams and things like that, I I think it’s really useful to think about like both sort of the feel, how does work feel to you on a, you know, day to day, monthly, annual basis, and then what’s, how does, how do you make opportunities for belonging? I think I have had places that I worked, where the thinking part was good, the belonging part was good, and the feeling part was bad. And I’ve had parts that were the thinking part was good and the feeling part was good, but the belonging didn’t quite mesh. Like, I didn’t quite mesh. And then I think I’ve had jobs like, I mean, probably like when I was younger, where I the feeling was good and the belonging was good, but the thinking was not good.

We’re ready for it, yeah, yeah.

So I, I find this really interesting.

Yeah, interesting, yeah.

Well, it’s been great to be here with you today. Go experiment.

Go experiment.

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I heard some interesting thoughts today. It was interesting to think about leaders needing to be aware of their own trauma that they bring to the workplace, as well as the trauma that workers bring to the workplace.

Yeah, I thought all of that, and I loved her description was so succinct and clear about what you experience when you have a response, like a trauma response or a body response from something that happens in a room. And I love the fight, flight, freeze or fawn like I I thought that was all really interesting. It’s not things I haven’t heard, but I thought it was a really nice description of all of that. And I think it’s really helpful to have these conversations about what we do as leaders, when people are having all these reactions around as well.

And I’m noticing that making the leaders human and thinking about leaders experience actually opens up leadership to more people.

I think, I think that’s definitely true.

Well, it has been great to be with you today on the Experimental Leader podcast. Go experiment.

Go experiment.

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Dr. Rosalind Cohen

I am Roz Cohen, Ph.D., an Inclusion Strategist and Thought Partner passionately committed to building radically connected cultures. With over two decades of experience in the HR field, I have developed a wealth of knowledge through my diverse roles in esteemed organizations and my academic research endeavors. As the founder of Socius Strategies, a San Francisco-based inclusion and strategy practice, I specialize in creating cultures of inclusion, connection, and belonging. My dissertation from the Leadership and Change Ph.D. program at Antioch University focuses on the impact of inclusive leadership on employee engagement and organizational success, which informs my practical approach with clients—blending research-backed insights with a touch of humor.

In addition to fostering inclusion and belonging, I provide external HR support, helping organizations align their culture with their operations. I am also a public speaker, sharing the importance of creating connected cultures wherever I go. My work is about bringing realness and radical connection to the forefront, believing in the transformative power of vulnerability, acceptance, and relationships rooted in courage. As a board member, mom of two hilarious teens, foodie, and travel enthusiast, I bring a well-rounded perspective to everything I do, aiming to change the world one connection at a time.

 

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