The show’s guests in this episode are Sam Nguyen and Hunter Smith. Sam Nguyen and Hunter Smith have both been working with Extinction Rebellion at chapters across Canada for the past 2 years. They are now mentor groups on how to use civil disobedience to achieve their aims.

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Leading Disruption with Sam Nguyen and Hunter Smith

Hey everybody, it’s great to be here with you live today. And I am with you from Las Cruces, New Mexico. I’m, I’ve been thinking about my own leadership lately, mostly because our family made a big decision and decided for one of our twins to go to school in Ontario and one of our kids to go to school in Las Cruces, New Mexico, the one who’s in New Mexico is a competitive swimmer. And he’s super, he’s super serious about that. And the shutdowns in Canada have meant that literally, in the last few years, there’s been one swim meet in Canada, while the US has been having regular swim practice regular swim meets any wants to swim in university and college. And so our family made this decision to just disrupt the decisions of one government over another. So I’ve been thinking a lot about disruption, and what’s possible when you’re willing to change a system. 

And I happen to have these friends visiting today. And they’re from Canada. It’s Sam Nguyen and Hunter Smith. And they’ve been working with extinction rebellion at chapters across Canada for the last two years. And they now mentor groups on how to use civil disobedience, to achieve their aims. And I invited them on my show because I’ve been thinking about disruption. And it’s kind of what they do. And I want to give a full disclaimer here, I have no idea what they’re going to talk about. I have no idea what their ideas are about things. And I will let them claim them for their own. And I will just say that their ideas don’t represent me. But I want to give them a platform and a way to talk because I think we all talk about disruption in technology. We talk about, you know, disruption, intentional disruption in business. And so I’m curious what the skills are, what are the leadership skills of disruption. And so, Sam and Hunter, I am so excited to have you on my show today.

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Welcome.

Hi, Melanie. Thanks.

Hey, it’s great to have you. Yeah. So thanks for being here. And I’d love to know kind of what you’re up to right now. How are you experimenting in the world right now we’ll just start dive right in and start there.

So Hunter, and I have been in Ontario and the East Coast. And we’ve been working with a new group, we got off the ground there called Extinction Rebellion Greater Toronto. And so we’ve been working with them for a few months. And now we’re slowly making our way back to the west coast. So we’re taking a bit of a detour through Las Cruces. So we get some sun and see if we can meet some other groups down here on our way over to the West Coast.

That’s great. And tell me what it means to get a group off the ground.

Well, there’s, there’s so many groups, the the main work that we do is based on groups that are mainly focused on the climate crisis, but it involves any kind of group really, that is doing work that is trying to make a better world. So when there’s so many groups that do activism, but a lot of activism can be quite tame, and it pretty much a lot of them will just be doing petitions or trying to lobby policy in different ways. And they can take seems like it takes forever. And it’s been going on for 30 years, and it hasn’t really shown to be very effective. So with this new theory of civil disobedience, that extinction, rebellion follows, which 100 I have both worked with a lot. It’s using a much more tactic is much more disruptive. And so we’re helping get these groups into doing civil disobedience. So there’s a lot of activists who are involved in, you know, groups like 350, or Greenpeace, and they’ve been doing this, and they’re very committed people, but they’ve never been shown or been told that you can do civil disobedience. So we’re helping get people that are involved to use this new tactic. And that’s not a new tactic, but it’s a tactic that people haven’t really been told that they’re allowed to use. So with this group in the Greater Toronto, we are, we’ve basically started events or what we call actions. And the whole concept and kind of flipped on its head as well is we believe that with trying to create Create capacity. So you know, getting more people out, you do that, by having these actions, you don’t worry about getting people first and then like, don’t worry about the numbers first and then get actions, whereas we do an action. And that really freaks people out. So we’ve had a few actions in Greater Toronto. And that’s really helped bring out more people who are really committed. And then we’re been measuring them, just the basic skill sets of how to organize for some disobedience. So it’s a lot of background work, we can’t just always be in the streets, we have to be organizing, and figuring out where we’re going to have an action and organize, you know, reach out to people to try to get other groups involved. And that’s what it means really to get us going.

And what would an action be? What’s an example of an action?

Just to give a couple of concrete examples that your, your folks can can look up if you like, um, a lot of what we’re doing is specifically modeled after a campaign like the Freedom Riders back in the 60s, where they had a very targeted objective, which was to integrate, or desegregate interstate busing. So if you for people can look up, I mean, I’m sure some of you know a little bit about it, you can look at that. And then just a concrete example of kind of what we’ve done in XR with extinction rebellion that we’ve worked with a lot is the short form is xr. So in Toronto, we recently blocked a major bridge, it’s called the bluer viaduct and connects one part of Toronto with another. So we close that bridge, which was a major disruption. And the objective of doing these disruptions is to try to build capacity of civil resistance to what we think of as like a billionaires toxic system. So it’s not just climate change, that is the most dramatic and obvious ones to date that people are, like, very urgently feel like they have to get involved, people have never been involved with any kind of activism before. But in order to fix save the planet, you know, make it healthy for everyone, it we can’t operate in silos anymore, either. So that’s why we’re trying to reach out to different kinds of groups, and try to offer them our training and unable to go on the roads with them for the first time. Because that’s often what it takes is for if we’re there and we just say, Okay, we’re taking the road, then people who you know, think they want to do it, they’ll then come. But if we’re not there, it’s really hard for them to do it for the first time.

Well, it’s like, it’s actually why I invited you on my podcast I I had my car broke down yesterday. And, and these guys came to save us, but I watched them, like pull their car in behind but like, like, literally, you could have blocked that road in two seconds. You didn’t, you actually just protected my car in front of you. But there were some meat, you know, some really big skills, you know, like safety. Where was when you know that I noticed like you were doing it in a really safe way. But also, you know, just like, letting like traffic was flowing. But it was quick. And it was skilled. And and it was sort of I was like, Huh, I’m curious about the skills of disruption. So can you talk to that a little bit like leading disruption, the leadership skills of that?

Yeah, so the really the premise, and the biggest thing about the disruption that we cause is we’re out on the streets, and we’re putting our own bodies on the line. And that means, usually, we’re not using vehicles to stop the traffic, we’re using our physical bodies. So we’re going out, we’re usually up banners, and you’re staying across an intersection. And so you would often do it, do the safe as possible. So we often have construction reverse high vis vests, so that people motorists can see us and keep us safe, make sure they respect that we’re there. And with that, that is how we take a road. So you can either go across at a crosswalk initially. Or you can just take a street when there’s less traffic there. So with that, that’s how so when you’re doing block a street, the for these actions, the police will often already know about our actions as well, because with extinction rebellion, we advertise our actions across social media so that people can come out and join us. But obviously then the police can also see where our actions get to place. So the police will also often be present. And they depending on where you are, they will engage very differently. Sometimes, when you show up, they’ll have already blocked off the road, walk away from where you are, sometimes just sit by in his watch as cars come at you. So you have to be very, you can never count on the police that you always have to be able to protect yourself. And hopefully, the police will make it safer for both ourselves and the motorist. But when we go out, we don’t expect the police will be of any help at all. Yeah, and just the stress to that, you know, the mention of the police, this is what’s critical in civil disobedience, if you’re going to do this for real, the power that gives it, why we do it is if there is not individuals with us, or ourselves that are willing to get arrested, then we lose a lot of the power of what we’re doing. So with groups specifically that have done this before, the police know that if they don’t come out with numbers, we will continue to disrupt where we are for a long time. So we think they usually have to make arrests. So depending on what we’re doing, if we’re with a new group, we may organize it a certain way so that arrests aren’t for certain. But we don’t know that often. It’s a new place, we don’t know that police force. So the police force might overreact quickly. other police forces in big cities that are more used to demonstrations, as Sam said, They’ll often just sort of cordoned off whole areas around it ahead of time and just sort of tolerate it and not interfere. But other police forces, you know, may react very quickly, very aggressively and Undertaker rest right away.

And I want to get back to I’m this is the part that I’m kind of confused about, like I just every time I we talk a little bit about it, I always get to this place. And I go, I don’t know the question exactly to ask. But it’s like, when I look at helping leaders achieve something, I usually want them to have some kind of target condition or a place in the future that they’re looking toward. And so I get a little confused by the idea that it’s disruption for its own sake, like that you’re you’re drawing attention to disruption, but we’re not clear on the end goal. And maybe you’re clear on the end goal, but I’m not. And and then just and then Hunter, you said something about like it can’t be just one initiative, it’s got to be the whole world. And then I get kind of I just get really tired when I think about trying to fix the whole world all at once. And then that becomes sort of a morphos. And I can’t really engage with that. So I’d love I’m there’s something about that sort of in service to what what’s it for, that I’d love for you to speak about. And I’m just a little confused.

We're disrupting the leadership of how they've been told over and over. This is the way to affect change. Click To Tweet

Yeah, I think that’s something that we’ve, it’s really evolved our thinking towards this as well. Because initially, extinction rebellion started in the UK. And it really introduced civil disobedience to people. So that’s how we’re thinking about it. Now, extinction. Rebellion, is this organization that is known around the world. And so people can come out and know to know what to kind of expect. So this is how we’re able to introduce people to civil disobedience as a whole initially, because and then we have these new campaigns that are coming out, there’s one that’s just started in BC, called Save old growth. And it’s a campaign that is only going to be very specific, it’s specifically about saving the old growth forest in BC. And it’s something that has overwhelmed overwhelming support in BC, there’s something like 85 or 96% of people in BC want to stop clear cutting the old growth. So this is a very specific idea they have and they’re going out on to off ramps of highways, or eventually onto the highways itself, because they’ve basically given to the government. If you don’t stop growth, logging, we are going to go out, block these highways until you listen to us, and we’re gonna keep doing it until you listen. So they’re going out, they’re gonna block highway, they’re sitting down on the street, blocking an off ramp now, and then they’ll get arrested. And then they’ll get released, and they’re gonna come back and do it over and over again.

Yeah, I feel so much more comfortable with that. Yeah, it’s very linear. It’s very, it has a clear goal, it’s well branded. Like all that makes me feel so much more uncomfortable, then we’re gonna shut down a bridge for everybody’s rights in general. And it’s gonna be a better world like I, the linear nature of that is I’m super comfortable with like, I don’t know if I would be on getting arrested on the side of the highway, probably not. But I I can I can get on board in my mind that someone might feel that way. I’m way confused about the more a morphos. Like, we have to change the whole society in order and we’re going to do it by blocking highways, I lose it there somewhere.

Yeah, well, that’s exactly it. And it’s because those two points here, the first is to be able to go onto the road and be arrested over and over again, you don’t just go from who I like oh growth, to doing that there has to be an introduction phase were introduced to civil disobedience. So without that extinction rebellion, where people are able to get onto the road people, you know, most people have never tried to stop traffic ever, right? That’s not something that people do. So we are introducing them to how to do it, and get them a little more comfortable to stopping traffic, maybe we’re helping them to do it in such a way that they actually get arrested for the first time. So without that experience, they’re not going to go and go join one of these more aggressive campaigns that is going to be involving arrest over and over again.

What would it be fair to say that you’re actually just teaching the skills of civil disobedience. And then you’re allowing people to take that where they want to for their own causes is that…

 

That’s exactly what we’re trying to focus on do ourselves personally, that’s what we see a roll that we’ve kind of carved out for ourselves that we’re good at, that we’ve accomplished a number of times. And, you know, so we, we help font, we sort of recruit a core team in a in a local area, we are able to mentor them, they get together, they’re unified. But the also thing too, that I just add is that we’re continually talking right now about traffic and everything. And it’s because it’s a highly visible way of disrupting, you know, everybody sees it. But there’s also other campaigns that were involved in that, you know, might bring out a different sort of person who who might not be as you know, comfortable or see the point of blocking traffic. So one example is there’s, there’s an organization in the US called stop the money pipeline that has like 200 groups that work under the umbrella. And there’s one specific campaign that folks who are much more engaged in civil disobedience. It’s right now it’s called Glue yourself to an RBC. So royal Royal Bank of Canada, which has branches here in the US as well. The RBC is like one of the biggest contributors to fossil fuels in in the world banking. So what this campaign does is a small group of people not announcing it publicly, unlike the other events that extinction rebellion often does, they go to an RBC, and they don’t permit it to open that day. So they’ll chain themselves to the front door, or now the sort of, you know, more, you know, flamboyant thing is they’ll glue themselves to the door. So they’ll literally glue their hands to the door, so the door can open. And then it’s on private property. So it requires engagement with the bank, and then the bank may or may not call the police to for trespassing charges. And it’s so it’s a completely kind of different dynamic, different environment. So there’s different campaigns that, you know, people can engage in, depending on what they’re sort of most attractive to. So yeah, we do see ourselves primarily, are a samurai as teaching the tactics, but in terms of the actual objective of the organization, where we try to help groups as well, you know, focus that so they articulated well, and what we’re trying to get involved with is teach other groups that have a very clear, winnable condition, that it doesn’t solve their whole thing, you know, so defund the police. Instead of having this kind of very general goal, we may we would try to work with a group to come up with a very specific demand that the community and have the whole what already generally be behind, but there’s just the inertia government isn’t implementing it. So they force a very specific elements of defunding the police, for example.

So we're trying to introduce civil disobedience as like another tactic in the toolbox. Click To Tweet

So you’re looking for where there’s already flow in some way in a community and then you’re drawing attention or almost, you know, bugging like Becoming a nuisance enough to get people to go, okay, maybe we should just talk about it, maybe we should think about it, maybe we should meet about it, maybe we should move differently.

So for so much of this, it’s kind of goes back to the old saying, you know, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, or, you know, if people know about the topic, or no vote, whatever. So when people can be in agreement that they want it to change. But unless there’s some real force or pressure applied, nothing’s gonna change because it’s easier to leave it as it is, because it’s always been that way. But that doesn’t mean it’s the right way or it doesn’t mean they can’t be improved upon. So with, you know, there’s so many hot topics right now. So with the the campaign that Hunter just talked about, with glue, self NRBC, people don’t necessarily realize that the bank they’re baking at is financing the climate crisis, and is funneling millions of millions of dollars into building these new pipelines. So by bringing us the attention of people through disruption, but even at the bank managers might not really fully realize that the bank branch they’re owning, or working at is actually causing a lot of damage in other parts of the world.

Well, and I’m curious if you can think about your leadership skills, each of you sort of what is it? What are the leadership skills? What’s the nuts and bolts of how you think about this for yourself? And what the actual skills are that that you bring to all these people? You know, as you work with them to help them? What are the what’s the leadership piece of it all?

You're able to actually try to dismantle that is the system that basically just extracts and oppresses people. Click To Tweet

At 1.1, yeah, I would say that a lot of it just comes down to experience. And, you know, when you’ve done something enough times, you you recognize how these, these things will play out. So you have that knowledge that you’re able to transfer and try to teach other people who are no, probably just as smart and capable, but I’ve never done it before. So you kind of have to just lead them along and say, we’ve done this before, this is how likely go. And we try to be there for the first few times beside them. So they have the confidence that if something goes a bit awry, we can help them adapt to it. So then, after we’ve worked with the group for a few months, they have enough knowledge and experience behind under their belt that they will to be able to lead that group once we’ve moved to help other groups.

I’m just so tickled right now, as you’re saying that, Sam, I’m just really tickled because I think it’s so interesting that the key to leading disruption is best practice and experience. So we’re doing something new, we’re trying something new, but we always fall down on like, who’s done this before? And I think I just I think that’s really interesting.

Yeah, I myself, I guess what I would just add to that is, in order for us to bring this kind of majorly disruptive idea, new idea, whatever you want to call it, because it’s a, it’s really in some ways, it’s a disruption to committed nonprofit organizations, or political advocacy organizations, We’re disrupting the leadership of how they’ve been told over and over, this is the way to affect change. Call your member, you know, call your elected official, write a letter, you know, the petition, do marches, do speeches, you know, we don’t teach any of that. We tell them, we’re going to go disrupt and risk arrest. That’s the weapon we’re offering them. If you’re willing to be arrested, then it’s very difficult to the state’s office and stop you for what you’re doing. And then a lot of the folks we’re working now, so the next level is, you know, the arrest or like mischief and something, right. So it’s a minor commitment. So then arrest and arrest and arrest then leads to jail. And so if you’re willing to go that far, it’s even more powerful. So for when we come to a group that we haven’t worked with before. I think one of the things of leadership that that we bring that’s so critical, is they can feel the commitment that we have. So we’re committed to doing this, like we’ll put ourselves in an arrestable position, every time. And so if that means that the local police overreact, we’ll get arrested first, and so the group kind of knows that, but then we help them position themselves that if the police aren’t overreacting, but if anyone really wants to force an arrest they can. And then other leadership skills that you know, he’s underestimating about himself. He’s like Sam is so gentle and such a great listener, that people just respond to him. And he’s able to sort of bring a group together kind of gradually by filling in the gaps between them. Whereas, you know, the way I’m involved typically, I’m much more like, Okay, this is what we got to do, you know, ABCD. And that can put other people off. So the two of us together, you know, kind of, really can, yes, it can. Yeah, yeah. So we have different skill sets to like, I’m very aware of the micro design of an action, I’ve got a lot of experience now as to how I will talk to the police or not talk to the police. And whereas Sam is fantastic about engaging the group as as during a meeting phase, doing being a face of a spokesperson when necessary. And, and leading media, I mean, for what we’re doing social media, and whatever is incredible, because often, the major media will completely ignore what we’re doing. So we reach out through social media platforms in a big way.

I want to talk a little bit about marginalization and privilege and how that plays into groups that you work with. When you’re talking about being arrested. I know that race plays a big role in that and who’s more likely to be arrested, who’s more likely to be harmed? How do you think about that as leading this work?

Yeah, that’s always a topic that’s brought up because it’s very blatant at, there’s this. There’s this big ACA, civil disobedience that’s been going on for almost the past year, in Canada, it’s called very Creek. It’s out in Vancouver Island. And right, there has actually been the single biggest act of civil disobedience, there’s been over 1100 arrests there. And they’re trying to stop the old growth logging there. And it’s been shown over and over that the RCMP will just single out, anyone who’s a person of color, pretty much, they’ll there’ll be a line of white people, and they’ll grab the one black person, like, it’s so blatantly obvious that the police are quite racist. That is definitely like a major concern. And that’s a critique that extinction Rebellion has received. Across the world, like in the UK, where it started, in other places that a lot of people who are involved with it are, you know, middle class white folks. And the thing is, though, that if you have privilege, and the police can talk to you, you should use that to help the cause, you should we’re white people are able to put their bodies on the line, and know that when they are arrested, they likely will be treated well. So, you know, just because arrests are very, can be very harmful or very scary for people of color, doesn’t mean that people who are being treated better by police shouldn’t use that as a really solid tactic. The other thing I would add to that, is that no, it’s it’s said over and over. One of the key indigenous leaders that that we work with, that we’re really proud to know is a fella named Skyler Williams, he’s he’s from the hood nashoni. In in, near Hamilton, Ontario, the Six Nations. And, you know, he, he’s, he’s been he’s been involved with the union movement as well for a long time. And he says, like, nobody beats up the left, like the left, nobody rips apart a native like another native, you know, and so like, within the movement that we’re a part of, we take more heat, and people take it a lot more personally, when someone who we assume should want to be our ally, instead spends all their time in front of the keyboard typing away criticisms as to, you know, oh, you’re you need to decolonize yourself better. You need to, you know, educate yourself better. Well, the folks that are on the front lines that are from marginalized groups. They can’t even understand what that’s talking about. They’re like, you come out with us, you stand beside us. Thank you, you know, like, you don’t speak exactly the right words, we don’t care at all, you know, and then they’ll use non politically correct words, because they don’t spend their time thinking about that they refer to themselves and completely non politically correct terms. So the the other part that’s really frustrating is that we’re trying to introduce civil disobedience to segments of the population that have never considered this you know, and So that’s privileged people for the most part, but the people who come from around the world in the global south civil rights movement in the US, this is where those actions came from. These are the people that have used them since time immemorial. And yeah, when they take a beating, they really take a beating. So the sacrifice that they’re making is way more for sure, the risk they take and putting their body on the line. They know they’re taking a bigger risk. So it’s, you know, it’s kind of condescending for the people to make that critique that, oh, you know, it’s just white people. No, it’s not. And yeah, it’s might be new, there might be a lot of white faces in this organization. But it’s really condescending to to the folks that have been doing this forever. And in environments where it’s not a nice liberal democracy, you know, they’re often doing this in places where the police are not going to, you know, nicely read you your rights, they’re going to get a you know, a big wooden thing and hit you real quick. So, just add to add to that.

I’ve always thought that it is so important, with privilege to be able to use that to effect change. I don’t know if you remember that we, Mel and I, when our children were born, sued the Government of Ontario in rather for the Ontario, we’re able to change same sex marriage laws. It was the easiest social justice work ever, because we had pro bono lawyers, but it affected real change for same sex couples using donor sperm to not have to keep adopting their children after they were married. It was a huge, so I’m really proud of that work. And it was a disruption in a way to like you can use the courts as disruption as well, when writing letters going to your congressman in. I’m more familiar with a lot of LGBTQ IA plus writes things, but often legislatures won’t take the risk to legislate, they have to be handled in the courts under human rights, because legislators take too much of a hit for being pro LGBTQ. So they won’t, they won’t bring those things forward.

Instead of having this kind of very general goal, we would try to work with a group to come up with a very specific demand. Click To Tweet

Yeah, and you know, a lot of what we’re saying is, we’re not trying to slam the traditional ways of making change, like coming at things using the courts, legal power, is always going to be effective. And and it’s one tactic, and the writing the letters, the doing the marches, making the speeches, those are all effective tactics. So we’re, we’re trying to introduce civil disobedience as like another tactic in the toolbox. For organizations, we’re not trying to say that this is the way it’s gonna work. Also, but by doing that, what we talk a lot about is we’re sort of pushing the Overton window, where we’re making groups who are willing to do this, then more radical, and then that makes the people that seemed extreme before now seem more moderate. And, and then maybe they’ll be listened to more effectively. So, yeah, it’s, um, you know, and Melanie, I enjoyed being at your wedding many years ago.

Sam, do you want to say one last thing about, you know, somebody is hearing this and thinking, Well, I’d like to do some of that, like, what’s the best way to get involved? Or what’s the best way for someone to become active in in, you know, a portion of the community that you’re a part of?

Well, I think, just from my own experience, I know three years ago, and before that, I always thought that climate change, or, yeah, it’s just a massive issue, that you can’t really tackle it. It’s just, it’s so big that maybe when I’m older, I’ll get a job that helps it with in some aspect, right? But, and I met so many people that are the same way that it’s such a big thing, no knows how to tackle it. But then, when I was traveling through Europe, I was able to meet up with extinction rebellion, when they had their massive two week protests in downtown London and close down the street for two weeks. And it really showed me that wow, this is something that I can actually be a part of, and now that I’ve been doing it for a few years, I may also help other people join. And you know, it really helps with a sense of belonging, but a sense of purpose. You know, you’re able to actually try to dismantle that is the system of you know that basically just extracts and oppresses people. So if anyone wants to get involved they can message me directly or they can just join their local group at a civil disobedience whether that’s extinction rebellion, or there’s other groups as well. So if they want to contact me and get involved you can find me probably easiest on Instagram is Sam dot x dot knowing. So if you want to tell knowing sure I put in the chat, maybe you just…

No, because it’s gonna be audio.

sam.x.nguyen

on Instagram

Yes

Great. And Hunter, is there any anything you want to add to all of that?

I guess I’ll just amplify what what Sam said is that we, we have found and us both of us personally engaging in civil disobedience for us and maybe others that have the same kind of emotional approach to issues where it all feels overwhelming, and then they can’t do anything and and it’s and it’s ruining their lives to that getting out on the street, the way we do, it has been found to basically be very therapy therapeutic for people. One of the slogans that I’ve seen over and over is despair and tactics begin. So instead of focused on the big picture and feeling so overwhelming, to be able to get out with a specific group of people that they’re sharing common cause on this particular moment, you know, you’re the group’s putting out a press release to explain why they’re there. And a lot of people come away with it, we’ll do like a debrief after the action. And they’ll say like, for the first time in a long time, I feel like I really did something.

Cool. Well, thank you so much for being here today. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you. Super interesting, what you’re up to. I fear for you a little bit. As I hear more. I think I don’t always ask a lot of questions. But I really appreciate you being on the show today.

It was a pleasure. Thanks very much Melanie.

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So it was really interesting to talk to Sam and Hunter about disruption. I I’m fascinated and I like inviting people on to my show, because I really love that leadership skills translate like they go across, you know, different kinds of work. They work in our home lives they. So I, the things that I noticed is, you know, a clear vision is still a good leadership skill. Best practices are still a good leadership style, and then sort of bravery. We talked about getting arrested, putting your body on the line in this one. And I think both those things, not the getting arrested part in leadership, I hope for business. But I do think that we put our bodies on the lines when we sort of have to give up going to the gym for our work or we aren’t able to do as much self care as we need. We’re putting ourselves on the line day in and day out in leadership. I really want to give you an assignment this week, I want you to think about what you want to disrupt in your world. And I really want to challenge you to go experiment with disruption

 

Sam Nguyen and Hunter Smith

 

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Sam Nguyen and Hunter Smith have both been working with Extinction Rebellion at chapters across Canada for the past 2 years. They now mentor groups on how to use civil disobedience to achieve their aims.

 

 

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