The show’s guest in this episode is Amy Wong. She is a founder, author, speaker and leadership coach. Amy is also a mom to two kids, a wife to a busy entrepreneur, and is based in the California Bay Area.

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Listen to the podcast here

Living and Leading on Purpose with Amy Wong

Hi, everybody. I’m Melanie Parish, it is so amazing to be with you on the experimental leader podcast today. It’s great to be live, I love the wild ride of being live with you. And December and then into January in my world is just this really interesting time where I start to do wrap ups with my clients about the year I start to look forward into next year, which always has a sort of interesting this this added effect where I start to do the same for my own life. So I start to think, Oh, well, you know, what was a part of this year for me? And what do I want to have happen? Next year? So I’m super curious for you. You know, what are you proud of that you did this year? And, you know, what are your top three things that you’re proud of? That you did this year? And then what do you want to have happen next year? And I don’t really just want you to answer like, what do you want to do next year? Because like, that’s a thing. And you can do a lot, but like, how do you want it to feel? How do you want it to feel different? How do you want it to? Like, what do you want to call forth out of yourself? What do you want to call forth out of the world? The universe, your relationships? How do you want to show up differently? I know this year, one of the things I was really proud of is i i got a little bored, and I realized I wanted my friendships to be deeper.

Whereas a really good coach holds the space of helping you understand your own mind. And so, for four thought leaders, having a really good coach who can ask really good questions, who can pull out of you your own thinking, sort of pure coaching is really incredibly valuable. So if you’re trying to create a brand out of nothing, if you’re trying to do something in a space, like carve out a space, where you’re contributing something that hasn’t been done before, that world of innovation coaching is particularly useful. On the other hand, leaders have a lot of feelings. And coaching can be really useful in that space. But so can a really good therapist, if you’re actually coming up against your own limitations. Either a coach or a therapist can be really good at dealing with things like impostor syndrome, if they’re a passing thing, or if they’re in a time that you’re doing something new, then coaching is a really good place for that. If it’s something that you have been grappling with, and you feel like it’s harming your self esteem, or you’re feeling like it’s affecting you personally, then therapy might be a good place to look at the why, because therapy tends to look at the underlying issue below it. And so therapy can be a really good look. And then when I think of consulting is the other place where you might hire an expert to help you as a leader, you might hire a leadership consultant to come in and work with your team.

So I just started calling myself out to have more deep conversations in my life. And I think I did okay at that I, as I’m leaving the end of the year here, I’m like, huh, yeah, they got better when I started being a more active participant in my own life. And I also know that I want more hot springs in 2023. I like I’ve realized that I don’t have to wait till hot springs up here. I can travel for them. So I’m pretty excited about that. And I’m also committing to 150 days of, well, I want it to be swimming, but I can’t commit to always being able to swim when I travel. So I’m going to say 150 days of exercise. So what are you calling forth for your life? In 2023? Not so much new year’s resolutions, just what do you want to order up? Like if you were in a restaurant and the restaurant, you could just order up 2023 to be what you wanted? What would you order up.

And today, I am super excited about our guest. Her name is Amy Wong, and she’s the founder of always on purpose. She’s a founder and author, a speaker and a leadership coach. She’s also a mom to two kids, a wife and a busy entrepreneur. She’s based in the California Bay Area. And her best selling new book living on purpose was released in May 2022.

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I’m super excited to have you on my show.

Thanks, Melanie. It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Well, we are doing book club on my show this year, which is always a little awkward right now. But um, I, I released my book in April of 2020 like pandemic. And so this year, it was just a weird time to release a book. And so I’ve asked all my guests this year to sort of read a chapter and this week, this this month, we’re reading chapter three, how to conduct an experiment. And I always think this chapter is really funny, because when I was writing the book, people were always like, well, you know, it’s it’s about the experimental leader. So the experiment must be the most important part. And I don’t actually think it is I think the idea of experimenting is way more important. But I wanted to read just a little bit from the book, and then we’re going to talk about it. Experimentation, on the other hand, identifies an end state but has few opinions about exactly how that condition will be reached experimentation, thinks about the cuts and maybes and possibilities and encourages people throughout the organization to see what they can contribute toward reaching that end state. Experimentation is dynamic and flexible and fosters the kinds of skills needed for a fast paced, ever changing environment. So I know you read this chapter I’d love to hear like what came up for you. I know you work a lot around, you know, innovative companies and people who are doing fast pay innovative things. What, what do you notice for you? And were intersects with what you do?

Yeah, like it couldn’t resonate more with everything that I stand for everything I do everything I focus on and what you just read, I think was so beautifully articulated and what what it really means to experiment, you know, I have ever saying, and I use it often, which is I’m always using momentum over certainty, because that’s the creative process. And what you just described really is that it is the true creative process. It’s to, it’s almost an art and a science, right, and how we effectively create in the world in a way that’s open and generative and nourishing, versus stifled and constricted and, and, and, you know, doesn’t feel great. But what you described here is really the art of being able to say, Okay, here’s my North Star. It’s what I’m shooting for. And now let’s go for it. And let’s iterate as we go. And as we iterate, it’s this idea that I’m, I’ve got a North Star, but I’m not so attached to it that it can’t shift. So as we get the data in, in, in the, in the kind of the short term, we might adjust and shift that North Star. So I think, you know, that right there, it’s what you describe is a perfect, perfect description of what the real nourishing creative process is.

Well, and and I don’t know if you notice this in coaching, but I thought for a long time, like, people come to me and they hire me, because they mostly want something to happen. You know, it’s like people that come to hire me to maintain their status quo, usually. No. So something they want something to happen. And they’re pretty sure they want it to happen really fast. And, and sometimes it does. I have a client like that right now, where things are happening really fast. And I’m like, Whoa, this is happening really fast. Because I’m, I also sort of have noticed over the years that sometimes the things happen, but the timeline isn’t always as clear like, you can, you might be able to order it up from the universe and work toward it or have it happen. But sometimes you have to be patient, or systematic, or, you know, it isn’t always the timeline you think you want. And, and so it’s I just think that’s so interesting, you know, it’s like there’s there’s, you can you can have some certainty about what you want to have happened? And then are you willing to do what it takes to make that happen? And I don’t know, I love the uncertainty piece too. And in time, the time is often the uncertainty piece, like, how long will it be?

Oh, yeah. And, you know, I mean, you what you’re speaking about is just such wisdom, it’s, we have this idea that we can predict what’s going to happen, but I don’t know where this comes from. Because we can never predict what’s going to happen. You know, I and I often reflect with clients, I’ll say, okay, just just take a look at your life right now, go now go back five years, did you think five years ago that you’d be here doing this? And then he’s like, Oh, no, not really. And so it’s, you know, it’s when we can uncouple and detangle ourselves from this idea that we’re supposed to predict or supposed to accurately predict what’s going to happen, you know, the more we can detangle this idea, it’s, the more free we are to create it into, to live into possibilities that are that, that are really nourishing. And that’s I think that’s the magic of really being on purpose and living on purpose. It’s being being open to possibility, but you can’t you can’t be open to possibility when you’re so rigidly following an idea of what you think you should be doing or what you think you actually want.

I have a question for you. Because you, I sort of just, I’m sort of working on the assumption, you know, reading your bio, and stuff that you work with people who are similar to, to the people that I work with, that are highly successful, that are working in highly successful companies. And I keep having this thought, and it’s not a very well thought out thought just so in case anybody thought I plan to this conversation I’ve got I keep having this, like thought about when people are like get frustrated in leadership. And I’m, and I’m like, What’s like, I keep thinking like, what’s that about? I don’t think it’s very useful. I don’t think frustration is particularly useful. I think it takes up a lot of energy. I think it often is around control. But I’m just wondering if you want to weigh in to that, like what you see what you thought. Anything you want to add, because I know you work around sort of fulfillment thoughts, and you know, living on purpose, this idea of I just wonder if you have any weigh in on on frustration?

Yeah, I mean, gosh, we could probably spend a whole day on this topic and you know, and it’s really a broad of broad question here. And so my first instinct is to, like really dig into that. And it’s like, well, what is it about the frustration? That’s interesting here? And what is it that is worth focusing on? And? Yeah, I mean, as humans, I mean, regardless if you’re a leader or not, we get frustrated. That’s just, that’s just true. That’s a very human experience. And, you know, if we if we narrow the conversation to frustration and leadership, I mean, do I do I feel that oh, yeah, I mean, frustration, it’s essentially it’s a resistance to what is, so we’ve got a reality, and then we push against for the moment we push against it, that’s frustration. And so, you know, depending upon what, you know, my client’s real goals are, it’s really going to depend, the conversation is going to be shaped by what those real goals are now, in truth, millennia. And maybe you’ve maybe this is true for you, too. But you know, when you take a big step back, when it comes down for everybody, the end of the day, they just want to feel good. They want to feel free, they want to have inner peace, they want to feel they want to feel good, they want to feel better than they do now. And I loved how you kicked off our talk here today, asking about next year. And it was such a powerful question that not many people think to ask, but how do you want to feel in 2023, and that’s so powerful, because you know, what we tend to forget, as humans petition, particularly as ambitious and very professional, you know, we got to achieve and we got so much to do, what we forget is that everything that we want, everything we think we want, it’s actually not for the thing, or the money or the status, it’s because we think it’s going to make us feel a certain way. And so if we’re contending with frustration, that’s generally gonna be feeling we don’t want. And where I generally take that conversation, or where it tends to unfold in a conversation is recognizing that we’re placing our power and our happiness in the conditions around us thinking that if I can just move the pieces around in a certain way, I’ll be free, I’ll be happy, I’ll be effective. I’ll be you name it. And so really the opportunity there’s, there’s usually a possibility or opportunity. It’s like, well, what would it be like to be unconditional in your leadership, to be to be able to be with what is and not resist it, but to be able to work with it? Because frustration, generally isn’t a productive emotion. It’s just eating up resources, keeping us from being creative.

I agree with you. And something that you said about that feeling question made me realize that setting an intention about how you want to feel in the future really is setting a target condition. And so you can work toward it without a clear plan. So it gives you that flexibility to work toward a target condition in a variety of ways, without knowing how you’re going to get there. But to hold the feeling of something as a target condition is a really interesting, sorry, it makes my little, you know, experiment like target condition brain really happy to Yeah, I think that we feelings in there as the target condition.

Oh I love that. I mean, because, you know, it’s oftentimes, you know, unless you actually bring that in. If you don’t, well, many of us work against ourselves. You know, at the end of the day, many of us I can’t imagine any human out there that doesn’t want to feel free and to feel good, and to feel inner peace, and to feel love and all of those things. And you know, so we all want that. But if we don’t bring it into focus, and we’re not using that as our target condition, we go forth, thinking it’s in the thing, but it’s oftentimes chasing the thing, that forsakes the feeling like, well, if I just get this promotion, and if I just do this, and if I just do this, and I just do this, and it’s and then we find ourselves with completely wonky work life balances where we have, you know, we’re stretched, we’ve got this or that. And we’re so far from this feeling of inner peace. And so until we actually bring that into the equation, what is it you want to feel? Often we can be working against ourselves, adding more frustration?

Well, and I often use joy as a barometer, because I I’m exhausted, I can’t get easily to joy. And I can’t sustain it. And so I don’t have to worry so much about work life balance. Because if I’m wiped out I’m not going to feel the joy. So it’s a good it’s a good measurement. It’s like a honor. It keeps me honest, if I’m, if I you know, if I can’t get to joy, I better I better clean something up. It’s although I had a little period in my life this year, where I had a really hard time getting there. And then it’s like, wow, there’s a lot of work to do to figure out what’s what’s keeping me from that. And it took finding a hot spring in New Mexico with a friend. Oh, there’s the magic equation.

I know, I know Yeah, Joy. I mean, it’s it truly it is, I think it’s the ultimate. It’s the ultimate North Star. Because I mean, it’s it is, it’s just so life giving, it’s so life giving. And it’s when we’re in that state of joy, that’s when we’re able to really, truly innovate and create and connect with others and navigate powerfully. And it just, there’s so much goodness comes from that state of joy. And boy, do I hear you though, like, I think it’s just, it’s, it’s just the creative process. It’s the human process to go through these cycles. I mean, we all live in seasons, and there’s the, there’s, you know, there’s the up season, and then there’s the down season as there’s birth, and then there’s death. And there’s the you know, so it’s, it’s this idea, this idea that we can be enjoy all the time, I think, is unreasonable. And when we find ourselves in those states, when we’re not, it’s just recognizing that, oh, this is just the cultivation period, this is the winter, this is the winter season of my creativity. And so when we can be in those down states, and not push against them, but just to honor it for that cultivation, and the fertilization of what’s coming, I think can be really helpful. But the two boys do I hear you, Melanie, I was there too. Who boy was I there near the end of this year, and I, I had to my husband and I went off to and did a phenomenal retreat in Sedona. Oh, my gosh. And there, I found my spring of joy again.

So, I hear, Yeah, it’s like, it’s like, when you lose it, and then you find it. It’s like, such a gift, if you because I hadn’t, I hadn’t. I don’t know. It’s It’s so interesting that ebb and flow of that. And I think it is kind of a superpower to find, to be able to reliably find it time and time again, as a coach for me that I can find that and hold that for myself so that I can help clients look for it. Maybe that’s the real heart of what I do as a coach is just like perpetual hunting for joy.

I love that tagline. Perpetual hunter of joy.

Ultimate. I think some people we never get there. But you know, we’re always looking. And it is interesting. So I want to know why you decided I know what it takes to write a book. Living on purpose. Why was that? The book you wrote?

Yeah, well, it’s I, I have been devoted to such an early early age. I’m just so fascinated with all things about the human condition, consciousness, existence, Transcendence. I mean, really young, I’ve shared with folks that I found tick, not Han in fifth grade and started meditating really young. And I just I’ve been so dedicated to this, the bigger questions about us and like, what does it mean to truly thrive and as you know, as I happened into coaching, coaching really found me in 2010. And I, it’s just, I’m so fortunate, I really, truly feel like I live a miracle every day, truly in my calling. And when I, when I went off on this path and began working with folks after, you know, so many hundreds of conversations, and after my own research, and my own self study, I was it was becoming very, very clear that there are some pretty universal ways in which we hold ourselves back, we don’t really realize it, and it has to do with our how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to the world. And in the process of working with so many clients, I was stumbling upon a somewhat of a nonlinear process to take people through to really free themselves from false perception, free themselves from this conditional mindset of I just need to get this and this and this. And this, what I call the, the hamster wheel that we’re on, it’s like, if I just finally get that final set of proof will finally be free, which everybody tends to be on. It’s like, how do we free ourselves from that. And so in doing this work, it was around 2001, as it was 2016 or 2015. I knew exactly what this book needed to be. But I also knew it wasn’t ready to write it. Because I was still in the process of all the clients stories and all the research. And the kicker in and and truly the motive behind this really was coming from a lot of my clients saying, Is there a book on what we’re doing? Like, what Calcutt where can I go read more? And I’m like, it doesn’t exist yet. And so the the Ask was so regular, and I might and I the desire, like you know, I don’t want what we’re doing here to be limited between me and the folks that I can actually work with. This needs to be available for everybody. And so I knew I was going to write it. And it wasn’t until it was it was in 2016 when I was in my certification for conversational intelligence, which is all about the neuroscience of trust and communication and what does it take to be conversationally intelligent? And when I learned about the neuroscience of rejection And, like the top blue. That’s what I knew. Oh my gosh, the final one. I, the final piece of this puts the whole thing together. I’ve got it. And so as soon as that solidified it was, I’m like, This is it. I got it. And I but I also knew not time. And it wasn’t until 2019 that I got the I got the hit. And so for me, you know, I only live off of inspiration. Like if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t feel time, then I won’t do it. I’m I’m very tuned in to like, when does it feel is when does it feel that just hasn’t always been the case for me. But 2019 I got the hit and I’m like, Okay, now is the time. And, and then it was just it almost as if it was almost effortless. Ru and there we go. And so that’s that’s why I really just because I had to I had to get this out there because it really helps people.

I’m totally curious about what you learned about rejection that changed everything for you. Yeah.

So yeah, so you know, all of us, because so taking a step back, you know, and maybe you see this with a lot of your clients, but there tend to be pretty, pretty familiar themes about the fears that we hold, right. So a lot of us tend to be afraid of failure. A lot of us tend to be afraid of, you know, disappointing. Others, judgment, humiliation, a lot of us have hard time public speaking, like, they’re all these things that seem kind of unrelated on the outset. But when you kind of when you take a step back, and you’re like, Oh, this is interesting, yeah. You know, when it comes down to it, like I’m really afraid of failure. And it’s like, actually, sure, but what’s going on here as humans, we have a wiring within us that truly, literally register what rejection is as triggering, as as the threat of death, rejection registers as physical pain, I have to think, Well, what how, how, and why is that the case? You know, and when you look at a human, you know, when we’re born, we’re born survival, brain dominant, right? So the prefrontal cortex isn’t developed yet. So we’re born hardwired to survive. We’re also born in this tiny, tiny, helpless shape in order to fit through the birth canal, which necessarily makes us entirely helpless and dependent on caregiver. So when you put those facts together, that you’re hardwired to survive, and you need caregiver to survive, then naturally the brain is going to be programmed to know that, okay, life, sure. We want food, water shelter, but hey, that ain’t common unless mom, you know, mom or dad buy in. So therefore, Death to the human brain is rejection. And so that wiring exists really within us from the moment we were born to the day that we die. And that when you think about it, it’s like, Whoa, that fundamental wiring really influences all aspects of our perception, how we perceive how we navigate because our brain is looking out for safety all the time. environmental threats, and social threats really are one in the same to the brain. And so unless we actually get Whoa, I on a on a primal level, I’m hardwired to avoid rejection. without us knowing that we can be so hard on ourselves like I was so gosh, why is it so hard for me like, I don’t want this judgment, I don’t want to speak in front of people. I don’t want to fail. Well, it all kind of map, it all maps back to this fear of rejection. And so bringing that into the story of how and why it is that we navigate in the way that we do can be so eye opening for folks. Yeah.

Well, and for, you know, those of you listening to this podcast, if you are creating a brand and you remember what Amy has just said, this is so powerful for brands to because, you know, knowing that a brand will stand by you knowing that, you know, as a practitioner, I stand by my clients. I’m sure you do, too. You know, this, this fear is so ubiquitous, that it underlines so much decision making.

Five Deliberate Choices to Realize Fulfillment and Joy by Amy Eliza Wong

I feel like it’s almost all of it.

That’s super helpful. And I do notice that none of the answers were a year. They were they were still quiet. And I you know, I think that’s really noteworthy. I want to talk for just a second about your book. And I just want to, you know, advance scrum case studies, which, you know, I love this stuff. And I don’t picture myself like getting that for my beach reading in the summer, or my holiday reading over Christmas, who should read your book? And what’s it for help us understand? Like, how, what would be, you know, who do you want to read your book? And tell us about it?

Yeah. All of the decision making when we talk about impostor syndrome, when we talk about, you know, it’s it lives in the minds of our top leaders, if you look at decisions that they make, often the sphere is right there. That’s such an interesting description of it, though.

What’s up for you in 2023? How are you experimenting in your life and work in 2023?

Yeah, well, you know, I, I just feel so I just I’m, boy, I love the creative process now for me. And as I explained and living on purpose, you know, I think one of the most powerful ways to facilitate to create and facilitate flow for oneself, and I love the Word Flow. I focus on flow and I love that’s how you kicked off chapter three in your book, which was talking about flow. To me that feeling of flows so powerful, and what are the ways in which we can facilitate and create flow? Now, for me, it really is about following inspiration. What does not work for me is to say, Okay, here’s my five year plan, and here’s what I’m going to create in the world. And it’s like, well, I don’t know if that’s what I want to be doing five years from now, but I do know what I want to do. Three months from now, I do want to I do know what I want to do next summer. And I only think as far as it feels good. And so what we’re currently at the moment, you know, I feel so blessed to have been able to get this book out in the world and, and touch people’s lives. And it feels like what’s really coming is working with individuals in a in a bigger way. Because right now I work with a lot of companies. And I love that I love working with leaders, I love working with companies. And there’s also, you know, communities out there that that, that I really do want to also be working with. So I feel like, you know, working with folks in a in a kind of a not hate to say b2c That just sounds so formal, but in a more it just in a bigger way feels that it feels like that’s what’s really right. And what also really pulled on my heartstrings and moved me in a in a direction was, I focus a lot on mindfulness meditation, it’s a big part of my my own personal practice, it’s a part of the coaching that I do with folks, because it’s such a powerful agent for real change, it’s waking up that awareness muscle so that we really can be in the driver’s seat. So I’ve decided to dive into that in a really, really powerful way. And, and so going on a two year certification for mindfulness meditation, teacher training, to as to just not necessarily to go teach, it does just really fill the the toolbox, you know, in full, so that it, it really fully supports my clients and everything else and I’m doing in the world. So that that’s what feels really, really nourishing. That’s what I’m excited about.

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Yeah. And where can people find you, Amy?

So you find out lots more about me at my website, which is always on purpose.com. And I’m on LinkedIn, which is Amy, Lisa Wong, you can easily go follow me there. And of course, if you want to check out living on purpose, it’s available where all books are sold, Amazon’s probably the greatest place to get it. The audible is there. And I got to narrate, which was super fun. So if you’re an audio book kind of person, and it might be a great option for you.

Amazing, thank you so much for being here today. It’s been really a pleasure just talking about all things living on purpose. It’s fantastic.

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It’s been great being with you here today. And as the year comes to an end, I really want to challenge you to think about the flow in your life. I loved Amy’s perspective on that something I talked about all the time. Think about where the flow is constricted and where it’s good, where the energy, the money, the light, the joy flows, and where it doesn’t and what the bottlenecks are and how you can remove them to restore and optimize flow in the ways that you want to in your life for 2023. It’s been great being here with you today. Go experiment!

Important Links: 

• Amy Wong – LinkedIn
• Always On Purpose – Website

Amy Wong

Amy Eliza Wong is the founder of Always On Purpose®. She is an executive leadership coach, author, speaker, and facilitator working with organizations such as Salesforce, Roku, LinkedIn, Silicon Valley Bank, Lyft, Expensify and more. Amy offers transformative leadership development and cutting-edge communication strategies to executives and corporate teams around the world, as well as institutions including Stanford University and the University of California at Berkeley. She pulls from various disciplines, studies, and practices to find a consilient approach to achieve flow and create profound impact through the three lenses of Self, Relationships, and Results.

As a Conversational Intelligence® certified executive coach with expertise in transpersonal psychology, design thinking, public speaking, and interpersonal neurobiology, Amy has catalyzed transformative growth for hundreds of executives and teams. She has a passion for helping leaders identify blind spots, reclaim precious time, energy and creative bandwidth, and create next level impact. Her bestselling new book, “Living On Purpose”, was released May 24th, 2022.

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